The focus of teacher support and tenure should be on the performance of the principal! This is the person evaluating teacher performance and whose role it is to
1) observe and note strengths and areas in need of strengthening ;

2) demonstrate by modeling more effective methods,strategies, and techniques;

Mentoring needs to be provided longer than 1 yr as there will be a new group of students for the second yr w/ a new set of dynamic learning needs and approaches.

This is the principal's job to effect change and make improvements among the staff. Removing an ineffective teacher should not be difficult if the principal is doing this job responsibly. Who evaluates the principal's success in shaping effective teaching?

Tremendous idea!! Let's start with the govenor!!

I will agree with this one.

Owl,

Have you paid attention to the fact that it's damned difficult to get rid of an incumbent? Thanks to the Supreme Court, "Money talks and BS walks" is now the law of the land. And these politicians are like cockroaches. Once they get in, with few exceptions (Christie being one because he can serve eight years, max) you can't get rid of them.

My idea is that, on election day, you get to vote for the effectiveness of the politicians serving you. At least that's what they're supposed to do. Usually they're serving themselves. Two consecutive votes of "no confidence" and out they go.

Actually the case has been made the pensions are unconstitutional. The state does not have authority to issue the debt the way it has. Its just a matter of time before a law is past which simply ends the system and frees the tax payers from the debt. What's amazing is history teachers in NJ don't realize this and will actually argue.

Tommy, "The case has been made." That means nothing. And what happens to all the money that employees paid into the system? Also, that gave NJ Governors, starting with Whitman, the right to steal from the system and not pay it back?

Mud lady: I am one who got screwed and is still getting screwed with our pension. "Thanks" to Whitman's stealing, I am "lucky" that I even have a pension. No increase anymore. Nothing!!!!

I've read a lot of these comments want to add my 2 cents worth. First, if people only became teachers for the benefits and summers off, shame on them. They shouldn't be teachers. Choosing teaching as a career should be something someone is drawn to, like being an artist or a doctor. My sister was a teacher because she loved school and believed that education was the key to the success of every person. That's the individual that should be a teacher. Secondly, I don't understand why teachers feel that should be painted with a differnt brush than those of us who have worked in the private scector; not only have we paid for ourselves regarding benefits, which, by the way were less when we began working than they are now so the argument of "the rules have changed and that's not fair" doesn't apply here, but we're paying for you, too, with little or no increases in our paychecks for years now (which, by the way, has nothing to do with our performance). Third, if the only thing some of you have to negatively say about Christy is how fat he is, than your complaints are small. He understands, better than anyone, how he looks. If you've never had a problem in this area of your life, you're lucky, and your comments are 'BULLYING' him.

The Mud Lady The Sunday Star Ledger July 29, 2012 : Over the past decade, those earning less than $34,300 - about 3 million people, took home even smaller average paychecks by decades end . The report found that three-quarters of all the new income in New Jersey during the decade was earned by the top 20%: households earning $132,000 and more. In 1990, only 19% of New Jerseyans who held a job relied on food stamps. That grew to 30% by 2010. Don't two teachers with just a few years on the job make $132.000 and more ? In my town , a 40 something teacher is paid $150 an hour in salary and benefits for every contracted hour . How do you feel those economic numbers I quoted relate to you and your compensation ? Or do you feel those numbers do not have any relation to how you should be compensated ? And, with all due respect, I never met a teacher with any significant time on the job who wasn't at some point a Teacher Of The Year. What objective criteria is used to select a Teacher Of The Year ?

Mud Lady nails all the issues here. The shortfall in the pension fund was due to corrupt and negligent state officials, and administrations like Christie (and Walker in Wisconsin) find a convenient message: teachers' benefits are too generous, the deficit is their fault, and they need to take a pay cut. This law may have good intentions but will do little to change anything, it's so insignificant and wrong-headed. I don't mean to target Christie/Republicans because I think both Rep and Dem don't have any of the people's interests in mind.

Teachers are an easy target in our society. They are not respected. Look at the post below citing per hour salaries of teachers versus other occupations, and all the other posts about private sector vs public sector wages, benefits, etc. Not only do these types of comments underscore what propaganda does to people, but it highlights something even worse. We really don't live in an egalitarian society when it comes to education. Our society in general does not reward the public servant, it rewards individualism. The Nordics do...Finland, Sweden, etc put in education reforms long ago and it took a generation to come to fruition. The Nordics are completely focused on the collective. I think Americans would and still do rally around collective efforts, but when it comes to education, the message gets lost too easily. The mainstream media is a culprit among many, including the NEA. As large and strong as the NEA is, they are failing terribly these days.

Mud Lady, do you support the voucher system which is what the Swedish system uses?

Marvic,
To Christie and NJ Republicans, teachers equals NJEA, and NJEA is an unequivocally hostile lobby. Hence, you shouldn't be surprised if your pension fund gets the shaft at any conceivable opportunity. You should, however, ask yourself why Democrats, who were for decades benefiting from massive NJEA contributions, also treated your pension fund like a pay-by-hour date. Maybe it's time the teachers dump their Democrat sugar daddies and look after their own interests.

@Mud lady- Let me expand, the NJ State Supreme Court has held that the provision in the state consitution on debt requires the voters to approve debt before the full faith and credit of the state backs ANY debt. That would include the fraudulent debt we call the teachers pension fund. Your entitled to what you paid in, but the benefits promised are much more lavish than what was paid in. Current retires are taking current teachers money. There won't be anything there for most current teachers. Sorry. The private sector has abandoned pensions for a reason.

Since teachers are responsible to teach civics to our children, I find it ironic that your union doesnt know about our state constitution.

Maxim, I wouldn't argue with what you posted. In fact I agree, teachers should start looking after their own interests. But that's difficult. The NEA, like any union, started off with great intentions and did many great things, but again like most unions today, they've lost sight of the big picture, and have been selfish, corrupt, and almost internally tyrannical. This is not much different from how corprations operate today. I know several teachers in Wayne and nearby, very good ones, who think independently from NJEA, and who also disagree with lots of what the local school board does, adminstrative hiring, etc. I'm sure we all know these people. My point is, NEA leaders and our corrupt politicians do a great job pitting teachers against one another, and especially pitting teachers against private sector workers, so much that we all end up having to defend our respective jobs, who has more benefits, who works more or works harder, who thinks who should or should not have more benefits, and all of that nonsense that is just a distraction.

And I'm not sure by writing 'your pension' you meant to affirm that I'm a teacher, or in the education field. I never said I was, and I never said I wasn't.

Sorry Marvic, my assumption was that you're an educator. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Mentally replace "your" with "their" in my post. :)

Mud Lady,

firstly, congratulations on winning 'Teacher of the Year'. We need more great teachers.

Saying 'illegal plundering' is exaggerating what really happened. Most taxpayers would agree that our previous pension system was antiquated. it's cost was drowning our government financially. It was not sustainable. I believe most taxpayers would agree that aligning teacher's retirement benefits with the private sector is fair and appropriate.

That said, we do need to reward teachers with a great salary. I agree great teachers should be paid on par with doctors and other professionals. That salary should work toward attracting and retaining outstanding teachers.

This doesn’t mean however that salary needs to continue to be paid after a teacher stops working. When you stop working, you stop getting paid. Makes sense.

NJ Taxpayer 1

I can write a REALLY long post here but it's late so I'll just make a couple of points...First, test scores are very misunderstood by the public. I teach students with learning and language disabilities. So, I have 5th graders who function almost across the board on a 3rd grade level or below. Yet, they take the EXACT same standardized test that a gifted student in 5th grade takes. These scores are included in the overall scores released and bring them down as a whole. How is this fair to anybody?

Secondly, students in middle and upper-class districts are doing quite fine when compared with other students around the world. It's the lower-class students who score lower, and the scores have appeared to go down over the past 20 years because this class grows by the year. The fact is, it's a cultural thing. I teach in an urban school district and the emphasis on education is so much lower than a middle-class district. Also, the obstacles these students face are great and numerous; and it gets worse by the year.

Third, for the past couple of years, teachers have been beaten down and vilified by our own governor and government. I teach with AMAZING teachers who truly love to teach, yet most of them just feel defeated and dejected at this point (Note that I'm not referring to this article. Tenure reform was needed).

So no, I don't think the status quo is satisfactory. We need to look at things differently and interpret things differently.

Teachers cannot make up for ineffective parenting.

@ Maxim. LOL. LOL. LOL. No one is outraged. I'm actually laughing at you.

The Mud Lady gets it because she lives it. Amazing how everyone else, simply by virtue of having attended school at some point in their lives, believes he/she is an expert on education (I flew in a plane last month - doesn't make me an aviation expert.). Unlike most jobs, people can take teaching for a spin by substituting (for $80/day), but are either above it or unwilling to walk the walk.

Oh, that's so funny! Weight jokes. Hey, just wondering, would you mock him if he were gay, had special needs or were a minority?

I liked Jimmy Kimmel's joke a couple of months ago, "Hey Christie, it's the Garden State, not the Olive Garden State."

The news today states that Christie's popularity in NJ is +20 in points. Who are these people voting for him? What are they seeing? He IS a bully; not a good role model for our children who are having problems with their weight - adults included. If he is voted in for another term, WE deserve him - if we are still that stupid!!!!. He will not get my vote. I will be happy to see his arrogant face disappear from my TV forever.

montclairdad: Hey!!!! Being Gay does not hurt you. You cannot get a heart attack or diabetes from being Gay!!!! Your statement sounds a bit prejudice to me.

So what you're saying Rosie is it's OK to mock/bully somebody for their weight? Good to know where the lines are drawn. I'm sure the 12-year-old getting bullied on the playground for being fat probably doesn't agree, but hey, Patch members give weight jokes the green light so tough it out kid. Guess over weight people everywhere need somebody to jump off a bridge, hang themselves or fire a bullet through their skull before they get the anti-bullying sympathy.

@ Maxim: Ummm. Terrible, terrible, terrible analogy. Don't even attempt to justify or clean it up. You'll make it worse. But, it's always nice when people show who/what they are. So, have at it with your "few monkey" jokes. LOL @ you. I am really chuckling.

>> Ummm. Terrible, terrible, terrible analogy. Don't even attempt to justify
>> or clean it up. You'll make it worse.

And here is the fake outrage, right on cue. Remember: MLK was a Republican. Robert Byrd was Democrat. Too bad schoolchildren aren't reminded of these facts often enough.

Max, your logic isn't logical. I don't make fat jokes about Christie and I think your racial comments are just garbage. Both are juvenile attacks, and adults should know better. Grow up, all of you.

Another excellent point. As far as education goes, New Jersey is at the top...

The teachers are the easiest target because people just don't understand what it's like. I've been working in an Abbott district for the past 9 years and we are on our 4th Superintendent. The 4th!! And every time a new one comes in, the entire district is restructured. How effective do you think that is? In addition, the sheer number of Assistant Superintendents, Directors, and Administrators is staggering, and they all make WAY more than teachers - AND 90% OF THEM HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THEY'RE DOING! The teachers are 20 times more capable than they are, yet your tax dollars pay for these incompetent losers. But, it's always the teachers fault, right?

Making it easier to remove ineffective teachers who don't deserve to keep their job and are complete failures in the classroom is not an assault on education. Removing a bad teacher is an enhancement to education. It is protecting bad teachers who can't do their jobs that is the assault on education.

Dan Grant: I have my shovel ready. So, can we begin with Christie????

redrider, who are all these bad teachers that keep NJ in the top 5 in the nation in education. Who does that self serving Legislators, a politically motivated Governor? It isn't NJ's fault that the Red States are so poorly run they can't educate their Children but NJ over all does a pretty good job and it is becuse of the front line troops. The Teachers.

If there are no bad teachers then no teachers have to worry at all about this proposed change or even the wholesale stripping of their tenure protections. The simple fact that the union is going overboard to protect teachers who don't do their job well is proof enough for me that they exist.

Teachers in NJ have always been evaluated but have they been honest evaluations. As far as tenure is concerned, I have never believed in tenure. If I did not do my job properly, I would be fired. If a teacher is only showing up for a day's work and a pay check, they should be let go. A teacher is required to go the extra mile for our kids. When I worked in the school district, many years ago, there were teachers who, when the bell rang, they were nowhere to be seen. So much for helping our kids. Out the door right aftr the school buses left. NOW this is a great teacher!!!!! Yeah!!!!! So much for tenure - no matter how many years - and caring for our kids. This is why we are lacking in math and science and other subjects. You do not find this in other countries. That is for certain. Doing more for our kids is the way to go.

I agree that there are ineffective teachers, but, in all honesty, it's more like 5%. In my time, I've seen two ineffective teachers dealt with by my principal. They were un-tenured and their contracts were not renewed. This was years ago, so the system seemed to work pretty well, at least in my school.

As a parent, we want the best teachers for our children and every school district is littered with tenured faculty that are too old and just finishing their time to collect a pension. When your child is "stuck" with one of these teachers, it makes for a difficult school year for everyone and can hurt the student's chances when competing for college acceptance.
I'm a Christie fan and a parent of 2 students and this is a start to weed out the bad.
Maybe not perfect, but a work in progress to help the future of our children.

If there is a 5% chance each year that students will get a bad teacher, that means over the 13 years the public education system is responsible for teaching a child, there is almost a 50% chance that any given student will have a bad teacher at least once. Those are horrific odds.

BTW, when I did that math I assumed only 1 teacher per year even though technically I should have factored in that students in middle school & high school can have a dozen or more teachers during the school year. You add in all those additional teachers, the odds of getting a bad teacher rise up to more like 98%.

Kelly you and redrider ought to hook up. What makes you think that because a teacher has been doing things for a long time that they should be kicked to the curb because they are older. That is a very insulting. What makes you think that because they are older that they are just biding their time. Worse what make you think that because someone is just starting out that they automatically have the ability to teach anything. If fact we have gone on a downward trend with your generation. What I like to call the Seinfeld Generation. If you think your children are being cheated take it up with your Board of Education. Your lack of respect for older teachers, in fact, probably older people is a hall mark of your generation assuming you have school age children. That will effect your children more as they develope than a teacher you don't think is working hard enough. We used to have respect for people who dedicated their lives to the improvement of these children. I can see you have none.

@Redrider, 5% is a horrific percentage??? What industry or field has 100% efficiency from their workers? That's just unrealistic. Furthermore, people like you want perfection from our teachers yet you want to pay them less and take, take, take from them. You can't have it both ways. Do you think that the brightest college students are majoring in education right now? No way, they've been following the attack on teachers too and are being smart about their future.

Mud Lady - I am guessing you never took statistics. It isn't the 5% that is the problem, it is the cumulative probability of getting a bad teacher over a student's entire time in school that is the problem. I am not okay w/ those odds or w/ a tenure system that protects those bad teachers at the expense of students.

I understand statistics just fine. AGAIN, I am for tenure reform, but your expectation that every single one of the thousands of teachers in America be great is ridiculous, especially with less and less bright people going into the profession.

I don't expect all teachers to be great. What I expect is for the union to not protect bad teachers at the expense of students. Your union is not doing your profession any favors by obstructing sensible reforms proposed by people like Christie & Bloomberg that help to remove bad teachers from the classroom.

Well said "MUD Lady." And if we are serious about improving the quality of education for our students by improving our quality of teachers, let us ask:

1. How can we work together with our teachers and support them in their efforts to achieve with our children what is in our interests as parents and as a society?
2. How can we improve teaching conditions, overall, such that teachers are better able to succeed at the task that their profession necessarily engages them in?
3. Given that so-called "burnouts" (who are understood to be a minority in the profession) are systemically produced, by definition, how can we improve the ways in which teacher morale is established and maintained across the public teaching profession?
4. Will cutting teacher salaries, benefits and job protections (such things as tenure) improve teacher success, or should we consider doing the reverse and increasing those things if we are serious about improving the quality of teachers and teaching?

Redrider – Clearly you fell asleep in that statistics class. If you flip a coin twenty times and it comes up heads, each time, what are the odds of it coming up tails on the next flip???

I’ll give you a moment to think about that ……………………………………….

Okay times up – It is 50%, just like it is on every flip. By the same rule if 5% of the teachers are “bad” then the odds of a student getting a “bad” teachers are 5%, not 98% as you so wrongfully conclude!

Now let's put this statement in other words. Students have a 95% change of getting through school never getting a bad teacher.

Thank god you don't design bridges for a living Redrider, I'd be scare chitless to drive over them if you did!

Clearly you failed statistics if you think that the odds of flipping a coin and getting heads every time 13 times in a row is 50% just b/c the odds on the 1st flip are 50-50. My post was on the cumulative odds of getting at least 1 bad teacher during the time a student is in K-12 at the public schools and not on the odds of getting a bad teacher just that 1st year. The odds of getting a bad teacher at least once over 13 different years in school are a hell of a lot higher than 5% if 5% of all teachers are bad as Mud Lady says. If you had read my posts, you would have understood that and you also would have understood how to get to my 50% figure if you ever took a stat class in your life.

So do me a favor Ed, next time you respond to me, how about you yourself know WTF you are talking about and actually read my post before responding just to respond. I really hate having to school the uneducated and illiterate.

Sorry Red, but you are just wrong. I passed them with flying colors. You however, are very wrong, or about to reveal an entirely new mathematical science. So here’s your chance to prove just how smart you are. Tell me; no tell us all just what is the difference on the 14th flip of that coin that changes its odds from 50/50? Do you actually think the coin remembers the first 13 flips? Do you actually think even after 1,000 flips the coin even knows it is being flipped? What? WHAT make it more likely to come up tails on the 14th flip? What changes the odd from 50/50? Did the coin grow a heaver tail, or would that be a lighter head?

You remind me a lot of our current Governor and the fools over on NJ 101.5 who are so blatantly ignorant of the world around them, and just too much of a bully to admit they are wrong, and open their eyes to see the stark, naked, educated truths that run the world!

The odds of a coin coming up heads or tails is 50/50 on each flip – PERIOD! Now Mr. Smarty Pants, why don’t you tell us the odds of a coin coming up 13 times in a row on heads? You see, that is an entirely different question, isn’t it? The same holds true to your 5% of teachers. I say again. If by your admission that 5% of the teachers are “bad,” than a student has a 95% chance always having excellent teachers!

I worked in education for 10 years, and had the pleasure of working, at one time or another, with almost every district in the county. I encountered VERY few poor teachers, but more than my fair share of parents who battled the teachers at every turn, questioned lesson plans, grades, test questions, the amount of homework given because it interfered with a 9 years old's sports schedule...

Remember when parents and teachers were partners and worked for a child's overall academic success?

Edward P. Campbell,
I am sorry for barging in but, your respective views on school system and tenure reform notwithstanding, Redrider is correct in regard to probability counts. If a chance of meeting a bad teacher is 5%, a chance of meeting at least one bad teacher during 12 school years is quite high. You're definitely entitled to your opinion on education system but not to your own theory of probability.

Man -- Okay, Okay. I guess you guys are correct. Assuming you both had a public education, clearly you two had at least one if not more “bad” teachers.

You are confusing the terms Cumulative Odds, with Frequency of Exposer, and then misapplying the rules of each. 5% of the teaching population being “bad” does not translate into a 98% chance of getting a bad teacher over your tenure year in the public system.

Look, and this is my last attempt to make this clear. If you had 13 barrels, and each barrel was labeled with a grade (k, 1,2,3….12) and each barrel contained 5% of bad oranges, the odds of you picking up a bad orange while you walked from one barrel to the next across all 13 is always 5% in each barrel. The only way to get to Reds number is to move the same oranges from the kindergarten barrel to the 1st grade barrel, and then to the 2nd grade barrel and so on. Or put in other terms, to pick from the kindergarten barrel 13 times in row.

If you don’t get it now, I can’t help you, so just call me a bad teacher, even though I’m not a teacher, because I lose my patience way to easily to teach people who just can’t think logically! Thank God, a real teacher can put up with stuff like this, and even keep a smile on their face while they do it.

Me, I just refuse to hire people who don't get it!

Edward P. Campbell, you might be a good teacher but bad statistical analyst. That's why you're in your line of work, and I'm in mine. Mine pays a lot better but yours offers helluva more benefits. In any case, most people here (Gov. Christie including) have no beef with teachers, only with NJEA lobby.

Btw, there is a scientific hole in your example but I don't think a statistical dispute would be of interest to readers. :)

Redrider is assuming samples without replacement. Imagine that there are 10 teachers in the school. 1 teacher is bad. The first time you pick a teacher, you have 1 in 10 chance of picking the bad one. Assuming no replacement, the second time you pick, you have a 1 in 9 chance. Third time is 1 in 8. The probability increases with more sampling.

Edward, coin flipping is also what we called a Bernoulli trial. Say you flip the coin 5x and they are all heads. If you flip the coin another 5x, more than likely you will get more tails than heads. If you do it 1000x, you'll see that you end up close to having 500 heads and 500 tails. I don't think this has anything to do with the school statistics that the Mud Lady brought up.

I don't want to debate the effectiveness of teachers. It's insulting for them to be grouped as a whole. With that said, I don't believe in tenures. We don't have it in the private job sectors and we shouldn't have it in the public. No matter if you are young or old or how long you've been working... if you are not doing your job, you should go. We are not running a charity here.

In response to The Mud Lady's comment. To me, 5% is not horrible but not a good percentage especially when it's hard to remove those 5% if they become tenured. The problem with our society is that we are satisfied with anything less than perfection. It doesn't mean we have a achieve perfection, but that should be our goal. Good enough is not good enough.

Edward -

I see what you are saying. You are assuming that's multiple samples like 1-6, 7-8, 9-12 (depending on how it's set up your district). So you Redrider are talking about different things. Though even if you break it up, each year, that you are in the same school you will still have a higher probability of getting a bad teacher.

Bottom line is that it should be easier to remove bad teachers when they've been identified. No matter whether it's 1% or 25%... The identification process is a completely different debate.

Cenny - not really using that methodology b/c I don't assume there is 5% of bad teachers that are bad in a school. I am assuming there is a 5% probability any given teacher is bad and that the distribution of bad teachers could be completely uneven from school to school. So I don't pull out the teachers in my formula, I pull out the kids who got a bad teacher (the 5%) in every iteration of the cycle. To use the coin flip example, it is like I am calculating the odds of getting all heads if you flipped a coin 13x but you used a special coin that 95% of the time landed on heads. The odds of getting all heads w/ that weighted coin would be the odds of getting no bad teachers in 13 years if each year you have a 5% chance of getting a bad teacher.

With regular coin flips, your odds are 50-50 of getting heads each time but your odds are .50^13 of getting all heads 13 times in a row. The same formual can be used to figure out the odds of getting all good teachers (.95^13) 13 times in a row. Since getting all good teachers is mutually exclusive w/ getting at least 1 bad teacher, you just subtract the result of that formula for 1 and those are your odds of getting at least 1 bad teacher.

Pop Quiz Boys and Girls

1Cenny, pls hold your answer to last, because you might get it!

A hot dog costs one dollar more than its bun. Total for both is one dollar and ten cents. How much is the bun?

>> Pop Quiz Boys and Girls

A nickel. You're teaching in Special Ed elementary, right?

However, sosonj, in my experience in the school system, a teacher will be on his or her good behavior for three years. Once tenure comes, they change. I have seen this. It happens. The only way to deal with this is do without tenure. You do not do your job - you are gone!!!!

Because they have to complete the models for how this is actually going to work. Districts have until later this year to choose. Sadly, there are MANY unanswered questions on not only the process but the nuances. Not all subjects are tested. What about special needs kids? Speech, Gym etc... Remember- what was just discovered in Texas about standardized testing. They found it didn't measure anything but large companies bank rolls.

It give the crappy teachers a year to file their retirement papers and drain the system some more.....

We wouldn't have so many administrators if we didn't have so many tiny school districts that barely have as many kids as some suburban high schools in other parts of the country. Do we really need more than 500 school districts w/ all the non-teachers those 500+ school districts each must employ to run their own independent districts?

Do Administrators also work 10 months a year like teachers... just wondering....

I invite you to teach my class for ONE day zizi, then see if you feel that way. You are clueless in every way imaginable.

I am ready to take the opportunity. What do you teach? When can I start......

Can you do what I do for a living for a day?

Note: It is amazing that you assumed that I can not teach your class without knowing anything about me. Not a very good thing to pass on to your pupils.

Prorate? We are only paid for Sept.-June. How will you prorate that? And if you are prorating, am I being paid for the time I have put in this summer? And kill the pension I pay into from every paycheck? When will I get that money back?

Sorry einaphets for not knowing the pay cycle. Most people work full year and get paid as they go about working....

How many days do teachers work? Do they work during summer and spring breaks? They should get paid less since they don't work full year..... another reason for negative growth in teacher pay.

As for pensions.... teachers should open their own 401Ks and Roth accounts like everyone else. They should not use public funds or need public assistance to have pensions.......

Teachers are paid a salary to teach a school year (like most white-collar workers). This is divided into a defined # of paychecks. Some districts offer an option for 24 semi-monthly payments (versus the standard 20 payments from Sept-Jun).

Many teachers, especially younger ones, take on a summer job, whether it's as a summer camp counselor/director, bartender, or myriad other temporary gigs. Many others do volunteer work. Some work for school districts teaching summer school, working school-run camps, writing curriculum, etc.

Many teachers volunteer dozens of hours throughout the school year (e.g., chaperoning, clubs, etc.).

The standard school year for most PUBLIC school teachers is about 183-186 days. Average # of sick days taken is 4 or 5. A private sector worker in his/her 40s has 260 work days, less about 12 paid holidays = 248. Subtract 18 vacation days (figuring 3 to 4 weeks paid vacation for someone with 20+ years) gives 220. Subtract 8 sick/personal days (most of my private sector peers take more) = 212. Things get fuzzy when you factor in those who "work from home" which for some means "paint the kitchen and take a conference call."

All teachers now have a mandatory contribution of 6.5% of gross salary into the pension fund, into which the state contributes little or nothing. Teachers who want more can participate in a 403(b) which is just like a 401(k) (except no match, ever).

No disability coverage for teachers, either.

Wanna teach? Get your sub certificate (http://bit.ly/O0lyJb) and go for it.

Or try this: http://www.njea.org/parents-and-community/teacher-for-a-day.

I ran out of space earlier...many teachers use at least part of the summer for professional development (usually out of their own pockets), procuring classroom supplies (often out of their own pockets), identifying new ideas, resources, etc. (Ibid.), updating lesson plans, and wondering what to do when on the receiving end of a desk or expletive http://www.teach4real.com/2012/04/18/an-overdue-letter-to-parents/.

Zizi - I invite you to spend 1 hour in my classroom. I teach in a self-contained classroom with 5 students with autism. 3 of my students are completely non-verbal. My students bite, scratch, hit, kick, and scream. I implore you to volunteer somewhere working with this population. I would love to see how quickly you lose your patience. I have never replied to a thread on any blog but your stupidity deserved a reply. I have always said that every single person should be a waiter and a teacher in life to appreciate how hard both of the professions are. I spent 3 years working in the business world and I can promise you that teaching is one of the hardest and least respected professions yet deserves all the praise in the world.

What is your job?

If Zizi shows up for any of the offered lesson, could you please cover the proper use of ellipses into the days curriculum?

Also a lesson on economics so that there is an actual understanding on who has been funding the pension system up tot this point. Considering the only ones contributing to the employee pension system for MANY years have been the employees themselves, it a baseless argument to insist that they "start" paying for their retirement programs.

Zizi, I teach an LLD class. I'm sure you'll be a natural at it. Come on in. I'm in a not-so-nice neighborhood in Paterson.

@TheMUDLady: I don't think I am cut out to do what you do. I do appreciate people who take such jobs and enjoy it. I just don't think I can do your job and enjoy it. Perhaps you and others like you need to rethink your decision to teach special ed since I see a lot of hostility and negativity in you guys. This probably is not good for these kids also.

Maybe these kids deserve teachers who like doing their jobs and feel good about it.
If you like something than it is more of a hobby than job. I think.

I think we all just need to put ourselves in each others shoes. No one's job is more or less important than the other. I think what The Mud Lady does with her kids is awesome. I'm sure Zizi probably works hard as well.

With total respect, Mud Lady, I have a question for you.... If teaching never had a tenure to start with and all the other benefits.... Would you have chosen this profession?

In just looking up the salary of the teachers in my school district on DataUniverse http://www.mycentraljersey.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=datauniverse08, it appears that they are pretty well compensated even without any other benefits. The 1st year teachers (assuming that they work Sept ~ June) are definitely making more than my sister made after she graduated from Georgetown and started working in social media and advertising in NYC.

Zizi You make some excellent points :The Newark Star Ledger July 29 2012: Over the past decade , those earning less than $34,300, about 3 million people,took home even smaller average paychecks by decade's end .More than three- quarters of all the new income generated in New Jersey during the decade was earned by the top 20% : households earning $132,000 and more . In 1990,only 19% of New Jerseyans who held a job relied on food stamps.That grew to 30% by 2010. A 40 something teacher in my district makes $150 an hour in salary and benefits for every contracted hour . Two teachers with just a few years on the job easily make $132,000. And that crap about preparing children for a high - tech hyper - competitive global economy ? The bio- tech industry in New Jersey is booming, burgeoning { ? }. There are now ......16,400 people employed in the industry , in a State with eight and a half million people. I'm sure many of them did not attend New Jersey public schools . The New Jersey public schools are preparing the next 3 million people who will earn $34,300 or less with less and less take home pay . They're preparing 30% of working people to rely on food stamps , and they're preparing 9% of their students for the unemployment line . And these people will be their EMPLOYERS. How much more proof does the public need to be convinced that their employees couldn't care any less about them ?.

It's amazing how you have me figured out from a few posts. I am nowhere near hostile. My students love me, my students' parents love me, and my Principal loves me. I have a collection of letters from parents that were sent to me and/or my Principal thanking me for teaching their child to read! I have other teachers in my school comment to me about how well-behaved my students are as well. The reason why myself and other Spec. Ed. teachers get so passionate is because of ignorant comments from other people who think we have it easy because we get "summers off", yet we have one of the toughest jobs in the world. It's hearing it over an over again that gets us a bit annoyed. And that's saying something because we are VERY patient people.

With this I end my debating here. I wish everyone the best and will see some of you on the lighter articles on Morristown Patch.

What is your idea of an alternative? Elimination of public education?

>> What is your idea of an alternative? Elimination of public education?

Public education should be limited to a few years of mandatory English, Math, and Civics, plus optional "path" - either natural sciences, arts, or social disciplines. A network of public magnet schools would catch up those who excel in their "path" and can pass the entry exam but are unable to afford private school. The rest, especially sports, should be the parents' responsibility.

@Max: What do we (society) do with the kids who got their "few years" of mandatory schooling but are too young to work? Certainly many parents would send their kids to private schools (ka-CHING for Christie, Cerf, and others), but many would not or could not. I think if you had a bunch of 14-yr-old semi-literate hoodlums on your front lawn you would not be happy. That said, I actually concur that different options are needed since *GASP!* not all kid can or want to pursue a 4-year college prep path, and the sooner we collectively come to grips with that reality, the better for ALL, especially the kids.

@All: Privatizing public education is the end-game for Christie, Cerf, and many others. Follow the money, as always... http://my.firedoglake.com/dswright/2011/04/18/cerfs-up-how-privatization-will-wipe-out-public-education-in-new-jersey-part-1/

Mike, if public education system is shrunk, more people will have money for private education. It means less burden on public funds and more economic activity. As I already said, full privatization of education in New Jersey is not possible due to the Constitutional requirement; however, SCOTUS's ruling on Obamacare opened a loophole for it, making possible to mandate purchase of education from private vendors.

@Max: moving resources from public to private education is a wash, more or less (from one pocket to another). Actually, one could argue it's a negative because of loss of economies of scale. Did not know ACA had anything to do with education - can you provide a source/link?

>> Actually, one could argue it's a negative because of loss of economies of scale.

One could argue that private education is more fund-efficient, due to the obvious fact that they can fire bad teachers at will and don't have automatic raises, sabbaticals, and ginormous benefit packages for every educator and custodian.

>> Did not know ACA had anything to do with education - can you provide a
>> source/link?

PPACA by itself has nothing to do with education; I was talking about the ruling, not the law itself. The ruling, which establishes a precedent, allows the government to mandate purchase of private-industry products. As PPACA mandates that private citizens purchase health insurance or pay tax, so can any state government, for example, dismantle public education and impose tax increase on parents who don't send children to a private school.

"Public education should be limited to a few years of mandatory English, Math, and Civics, plus optional "path" - either natural sciences, arts, or social disciplines. "

Sure. Let's dumb down future voters even further. Why should more than the gifted/wealthy few need to know science? It's not like voters have to decide among competing claims in areas such as biosphere maintenance or utility of utilities. An understanding of numbers is grossly overrated; let voters get all huffy about the high percentage of convicts having a criminal background. Who needs to understand economics when we can have talking heads spouting about the equivalence of Greece and the USA while ignoring the difference in the underlying fiscal mechanisms?

Plenty of people talk about our need for a population capable of functioning in a high-tech economy, and I certainly agree with that. But let's not ignore the need for a technologically and scientifically savvy citizenry as the issues facing our towns, states, and nations grow increasingly complex - and as propaganda is permitted to play an increasing role in advertising various political positions.

...Andrew

I don't see the contrast that you suggest. Obama and education secretary Arne Duncan are pretty much in sink with Chris Christie when it comes to these bad ideas.

What particular features of Obama's education policy do you take issue with that you feel Gov. Christie sees things differently on?

I agree!

Love Christie, Don't believe in Tenure, and Obama's got to GO

Absolutely! It always cracks me up how the Christie haters resort to name calling. Christie is fat, he must be wrong. Yeah, good argument.

So Maggie, you agree with a total erroneous comment. Good job.

How does this law stop corrupt administrators from protecting and rewarding their cronies with good evaluations while punishing good teachers who they don't like for political, personal or other malicious reasons with bad evaluations and eventual termination?

It doesn't. You need to do that by voting for reformers for your local BOE. The state can't fix your BOE for you.

@Scondo: I actually agreed with your post...until you got to "ineffectively schooled" as if the kid who doesn't give a sh!t about learning bears no responsibility (nor his/her family). And then you go on to compare Huntington with all public schools. Apples and beach sand!. They have virtually NOTHING in common. Teacher:student classroom ratios, discipline issues, etc. Not even close. Honestly, if each family had to put up a deposit at the beginning of each school year which is partially or fully forfeited if the child is a major discipline issue (tells staff to f*ck off, denies others their right to education, attendance/tardiness issues, makes no effort, etc.), I'd be all for it. Take that money and set up a separate school, taught by Iraq/Afghanistan vets who can do anything except deck the kids, for those who think it's a party. Then the kids who actually try and want to learn can do so, unfettered.

@Mike33: It doesn't. Just like in the corporate world, if they want you, you've got a job for life; if they don't, they will find or manufacture an issue so you can be terminated. In public education, though, since they simply decline to renew your contract at the end of the school year, it's not officially a termination so they don't have to worry about lawsuits.

The teachers ARE the union. How do you think it works?

Mike33, how does ANY law stop corrupt corporate bosses and business owners from doing exactly same in the private sector? So, why should teachers be any different? Moreover, administrators are employed at will and can be promptly fired by the boards who answer to the voters.

Max is right (again). Race to the bottom. If I (in private industry) do not have a pension (I think the % of private industry folk with a pension is under 10% these days), then teachers should not. If I have crappy (or no) healthcare coverage, neither should teachers. If I have little/no job security, neither should teachers. If I have a shot at profit sharing or bonus when my company does well (or, if I'm in senior management, when my company does poorly), then teachers should not. And so on. It's race to the bottom, which makes the top 0.1% very happy because when the middle class is annihilating each other, they just count their money.

Mike, thanks for your fake concern, fake support, and misrepresentation of what I say. All the nice things you list have to be paid by someone, and I have a surprise for you: that money doesn't grow on money trees. It is paid by the same middle class that you pretend to champion. School tax takes an enormous chunk out of everyone's budget - so enormous, in fact, that many have to sell their houses and leave their hometowns because of it.

I think that Mike33 has made the most veritable comment out of many. We live in this utopian society that believes anything a politician, whom by the way, knows nothing about education- says. The problem lies deeper than the teachers-poor souls! It starts with administrators who are very unprepared and too young to lead. They are placed there simply for their connections. It is a system, as we know it, which is the most corrupted. We need to follow the European models - which have demonstrated clear success. Start by centralizing the education system. It is a start. Too much incompetence is present at this time which impedes reform. I fear the teachers will be tortured and abused by this political apparatus that favors politically connected individuals without merit. I end by saying: POOR STUDENTS!

Mike33, maybe the school should stop wasting taxpayer funds on music and dance education and leave it to parents? I'm sure they know better what to do with their money and their kids' art priorities than an unknown Trenton bureaucrat.

Max, Those programs are effectively run by local school boards, They are not "run out of Trenton" Why did you leave your country if you hate America so much?

Dan Grant, either tone your pointless insults down or go take your laxatives and sell some cars in North Korea. In case you failed to note, people are actually talking here.

Yeah Maxim, because SO many parents in urban settings are on the ball when it comes to educating their children on the arts. Some of you people are amazing in your ignorance.

>> Yeah Maxim, because SO many parents in urban settings are on the ball when it
>> comes to educating their children on the arts.

Would you enlighten me as to why it's the government's duty to educate children on the arts? And why, as a taxpayer, I should pay salaries to a bunch of dimwitted union stooges (loosely referred to as "teachers") who pretend to do so?

"dimwitted union stooges". I could give you many instances when these people made a huge impact in a child's life, but I'm done debating with you since you've relegated yourself to childish name calling.

Mud Lady, I just have a rule of answering an insult with an insult. Quoting you: "Some of you people are amazing in your ignorance." You want to live in a glass castle, stop throwing rocks.

And I don't really care for "huge impact" you mention. First, the impact might not be there. Second, it might not be positive. And third, I feel like I'm grossly overpaying for that mysterious impact.

@Mud Lady: Childish name-calling? Like “numbnuts,” “poster boy,” “thug,” “idiot” and and “arrogant SOB.” And asking reporters to 'take the bat' to a 76-year-old widow?

@Mike33: One proposal for evaluating teachers of subjects not currently tested at the state level is to use how well those kids do overall.

Then again, Pearson, the biggest tester in the nation, isn't sitting on its hands:
http://grumpyelder.com/?p=32324
http://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2012/06/29/fcat-administrators-pay-big-money-to-lobby-legislators/
http://www.wiredacademic.com/2011/10/pearson-draws-criticism-from-new-york-to-texas-justified-or-unjustified/

As an art teacher and union rep I can say something to some of this. My supervisor comes by the class regularly and sees what's going on. I turn in my lesson plans every so many weeks or my website can be checked. My students are talked to and asked questions about what they are doing. Therefore when my evaluation comes around and I am observed it's not the first time my super has seen me teach. Besides there's the work, the results of thinking and process, the results of a teacher that cares that all his students are reacting to his/my stimulus in some fashion. Rule, I don't care if you agree or not but you have to have a reason or reasons for your answer and their fore you have to be able to exhibit that reason in some kind of visual manner that everyone in the class can have a reaction to. Class involvement creates interactions and learning. This breaks down classic stereotypes by including art history and cultural history. No one gets away with just saying something without backing it up in some fashion.
So this is why we teach these things. They are important to us as a people and as people. I teach according to effort. You can only fail if you do not try. Trying means you are using what you have learned not just in class but in your life and by doing research. Music and dance and the other arts are all important, as important as sports. They should all tie into one learning experience. Not small little segregated compartments.

Administrators have no expertise in any field. Unfortunately, the majority of them are failed teachers. The become administrators because they seek power and cannot deal with the daily stress of the classroom. They usually are the ones with less intellectual depth...

Mike33, I reckon you're being sarcastic but that would be actually a very good idea. A very significant chunk of school tax money is spent on activities that kids can perfectly do at home, and a few kids who choose sport as their career path would be better served by private facilities rather than pursuing their goal on public dole.

As for ending public education, you might want to read one of my earlier responses. It will answer your question - assuming that was a question and not a tongue-in-cheek suggestion.

Mike, are you suggesting that parents are qualified to teach the skills and knowledge and reasoning that children will need in life? How many parents are versed in language(s) and science and technology and mathematics? We are already well on our way to being a nation of idiots because we do NOT value education, we do NOT value knowledge, and we do NOT value critical thinking! How can you say that ANY parent has all this knowledge and is qualified to teach this material? Of course when we are a nation of people who think a big man who lives in the sky created the earth in six days, competing with other countries won't be an issue, because we just simply won't even be in the same ballpark!

Mike33, I believe that public education is, even in the age of Internet, a necessary evil. Moreover, it is mandated by the Constitution of New Jersey. The existing system, however, is enormously bloated and inefficient due to political pressure from NJEA lobby to employ more "educators", which yields higher union dues.

As for districts like Newark, many residents there are not too fond of ghetto life and wish a chance for their children to get out. Please do yourself a favor and watch the movie called "The Cartel" to see how NJEA keeps urban children on their modern-day plantation.

I have parents of students who can't speak English. Do you think that child is going to get a good education from them? Teachers need the full support of parents, they can do most of the academic teaching themselves.

Maxim said something right finally. The existing system IS bloated - with administrators, assistant superintendents, and directors. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. You have to understand, many teachers and their administrators are butting heads now because of this.

>> The existing system IS bloated - with administrators, assistant
>> superintendents, and directors. I agree with you wholeheartedly
>> on that. You have to understand, many teachers and their
>> administrators are butting heads now because of this.

You're correct, but the system is also bloated with subjects that have nothing to do with what was the original task of the public education - turning out people capable of acquiring and holding a decent job. Strip arts and sports, cut feely-goody and politically-correct fluff out, and the public education program can still be salvaged.

@Max/others: If you're gonna watch "The Cartel" or "Waiting for Superman" please watch http://vimeo.com/41994760 as well before drawing conclusions.

Mike, the movie you linked is a rather pathetic propaganda attempt by the teachers' union. It doesn't answer a single question raised in "Waiting for Superman", not to speak of "The Cartel". Instead of answers and statistical facts, it unleashes a flood of interviews (some of them perceivably scripted) that reiterates the "teachers care" message.

Hence the stronger correlation between strong academic success and socio-economic class. Otherwise, simply take the teachers from Montville, Mendham, or Rumson and swap them with the teachers in Camden, Irvington, Newark, etc., and all will be fixed.

As a 42-yr veteran teacher told me, "can't turn chicken sh!t into chicken soup!"

Right! So teachers in urban districts are unfairly judged.

Teachers in urban areas are not unfairly judged when they are compared against teachers in other urban areas w/ similar demographics.

Christie is nothing more than a political opportunist who see political gain in beating up on teachers.

Mike33, the criterion is very simple. The average graduate should be able to:

- fluently read a local newspaper, or a basic book, fiction or non-fiction
- write a simple business letter, a resume, or a technical instruction
- perform four arithmetic actions, aided with a pen and a blank sheet
- use a typical computer, browse Internet, and write and read emails
- know how the government and the court of law operate

The rest is optional fluff. However, to nurture talent even in the poorest kids, the "path" education should also exist, supported by public magnet schools.

@Max: I don't think any rational person would disagree with your list, limited that it is. I do notice nothing on your list lends itself to learning to think critically or write/communicate effectively.

I will add that too many parents have abdicated teaching their kids things like morals, ethics, courtesy, social norms (e.g., not cursing out authority figures just because they can get away with it) and expect teachers to do so.

I believe a major issue is that public education, which comes to something like $14K/student, is perceived as free and therefor having no value. Students give up NOTHING to get it, so they treat it as such.

Mike, it is not the government's duty to teach children to think critically (in fact, many politicians prefer them not to) or appreciate fine art, even if some parents fail to do so. Government's duties are enumerated in the Constitution. Here is what the Constitution of New Jersey has to say:

"The Legislature shall provide for the maintenance and support of a thorough and efficient system of free public schools for the instruction of all the children in the State between the ages of five and eighteen years."

Therefore, dismantling or full privatization of the public education is out of question, period; NJEA should really lay this particular strawman to rest. We may differ in what constitutes a "thorough" or an "efficient" system, or whether a private alternative should exist in that or another form, but doing what Christie's critics accuse him of would be impossible, and possibly seditious.

@Max: Your statement of politicians not wanting people to think critically is spot-on in many cases (sadly, IMO). The argument of where to draw the line in doing things for the public good and where it's to benefit individuals is a hard one to draw. Arguments are made that a well-educated citizenry will make us more competitive globally, which benefits the collective "us."

As an aside, I believe very few people know the histories of Christie and [freshly-ordained DoE Commissioner] Chris Cerf are in education deform, er, reform:
http://www.bluejersey.com/diary/21374/the-chris-cerf-story-prejersey

Mike, I don't think children who played football in high school or wrote essays about their favorite lesbian hero are "more competitive globally". In fact, I believe it's exactly the other way around. The only things the government actually needs us, as taxpayers, to be able to is reading, writing, doing arithmetic, using basic tools of trade, and knowing law and our civic duties.

I learned more about life and about myself by being on the football team than I ever learned in a classroom. Learning to be competitive, how to win & how to lose, how to push yourself as hard as you can even when you think you can't push yourself any harder and that there are consequences to your actions are important lessons in life. Sports teach you those lessons, a dry lecture in the classroom doesn't.

Every time I see this argument, that arts and sports/phys ed should be cut, it's never from someone who is creative, or athletic. My wife and I both went to Art School and we both make a good living from our talents. It's not for everyone, and neither is high level math or science. Creative people generate trillions of dollars in the world economy. The clothes on your back, the shoes on your feet, the jewelery or the car you've always wanted, the movies, TV shows and video games you enjoy, the house you live in are all because of creative people. Fostering a creative mind is extremely important, it's where inventive ideas come from, that same part of the brain that allows someone to imagine something and then make it a reality and it's not limited to artists. Engineers, Architects, Scientists, all benefit from using their imagination, and that starts with very simple exercises as a child. As far as physical education goes, you are free to be flabby and unhealthy, live a less productive and shorter lifespan and go on to cost everyone more in health premiums because you cost more to take care of as opposed to someone who stayed fit their entire lives and enjoys a better quality of life and is more productive as a result.

Eric, you're a living proof that art and logic don't go well together. The reason the government is interested in public education is that basic skills such as reading, writing, math, and civics are required for every citizen to function in the society. Art and physical education, even though they are unquestionably beneficial, are not on this list because one can live without (poor choice as it may be). One who wants to choose either as a life career is free to pursue it, but it should be done at one's own expense. Public school is not the right venue to get healthier or develop taste to fine art, it is family's responsibility.

I see, so basically what you're saying is that the entire concept of what I wrote is over your head. You're still stuck on art appreciation, which has nothing to do with what I wrote. As far as physical fitness, unfit people are less productive, get sick more often and really in terms of national security, we're already having problems with that. 25% of people who enlist are turned away because they are unfit. Sorry if you never learned to challenge yourself physically, otherwise you would understand the importance.

>> Sorry if you never learned to challenge yourself physically, otherwise you
>> would understand the importance.

Your concern about my physical condition is noted. I have served, in the Middle East. Have you?

OK, I'll bite, with what branch of the US Military did you serve and when?

>> OK, I'll bite, with what branch of the US Military did you serve and when?

Bite or suck, it's your call. Did I say "US Military"? I said Middle East. Does "IDF" ring a bell to you?

Oh THAT figures. Should I be impressed that you fulfilled your compulsory service with a foreign military instead of the US? That would explain why you're seemingly so confused about America, your allegiance lies elsewhere.

"What kids in this country need is less physical activity" Words never said by anyone in the American Armed forces.

Buy yourself a clue, Eric. I haven't heard about your service yet. You know, art people are allowed to openly enlist now.

HAHAHA! Suuure. No one ever made up a military background on the internet to make themselves seem like a tough guy. You haven't exerted yourself in 25 years Max, no wonder you have no clue about the benefits of physical activity, you're too old, out of shape and bitter to remember what it's like to be a rambunctious child cooped up in a classroom all day and how that affects your ability to learn and concentrate. You just think it will cut your taxes and that's your only concern, not the long term effects. You must be a blast at parties, crowds of people clamoring to hear all of your great ideas on how to encourage children to be boring, generic and fat.

So getting rid of retired medical for everyone is the answer? Yet the people who would make that decision would keep their fat pensions and benefits until the day they die. Are you mad?! Teacher shortages are being forecast as all the baby boomers retire and there are less and less students going into teaching. Yes, let's take even more away, that'll solve the problem.

>> http://schoolfinance101.wordpress.com

Interesting read, and well-peppered with facts and stats. I'll see if it offers any conclusions I couldn't come to by myself. Thanks!

>> This tenure reform revolves around yet MORE testing; it's now become
>> a good 80% of what teachers do.

Can't argue that. The amount of testing the districts have to perform has become borderline insane. Of course, none of that would really be required if the districts could just employ the teachers at will, just like every other employer in the land...

Welfare and other social programs for people who leave our schools w/ a subpar education and no skills with which they can get a decent paying job cost us far more.

But if you really are concerned about costs there is an easy solution, we end tenure.

Ok Maxim, we're being civil again...It would definitely be required if districts could employ teachers at will and here's why: Students in the lower socio-economic cities/towns/districts would still perform behind those in middle and upper class ones. From being in education a long time, I can tell you that this is a fact. Therefore, to all of those making the rules, testing, testing, and more testing will always be the answer so they can "identify the problem". And the people who make these decisions, that unfortunately fall onto the poor teachers, are like many people who post here - they know NOTHING about how educating children works.

Redrider, you don't seem to understand that I couldn't care less about tenure. All tenure does is give a teacher due process. I'm not arguing about that. My point is that all these politicians want is more testing because they (wrongly) thinks that it's the only answer and these huge test-making companies are getting wealthier and wealthier off of YOUR tax dollars. Ending tenure will save next to nothing.

Excessive testing is just a pretext. Say, there is a teacher that I want to fire but cannot because the union rules say no. So I run 100 different tests and the said teacher is bound to fail at least a few of them (if he doesn't, he's likely a genius - why are we trying to fire him?). Once I have a documented failure, it becomes easier for me to get rid of him/her.

All this ordeal for both teachers, boards, and children could have been spared by right-to-work legislation. No closed shop, no collective bargain agreement, no problem firing a bad teacher, no testing required. I would still require an unanimous agreement between the PTA, the Board, and the Super, just to prevent politically motivated, retaliatory, or impulsive firings.

It all comes back to what makes one teacher "bad" and another "good"?

In a rich district, it might mean Biff didn't get into Harvard so the parents want half his HS teachers (the ones who didn't give Biff a 100) fired. In da hood, it might mean something entirely different (e.g., the student who never does "get" Algebra II but whose math teacher works with him on anger management and maybe even exploring a career that doesn't call for math) - the kid fails the state test but is a better person for having had that teacher (admittedly hard to quantify). It's much easier to get a group of top kids in Mendham to score 4s and 5s on an AP exam than it is to get a bunch of "problem" kids in da hood to pass a state test. Imagine firing every dentist whose patients refuse to brush their teeth and get cavities.

I knew a 5th grade teacher in a rich district who was yelled at by a parent: "I don't pay thirty grand a year in property taxes for my kids to get Bs!!!" http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-03-07-forum-students_x.htm

@Philip: "Summers off" = unpaid furlough.

If you feel strongly about this, go to your local BoE meetings and campaign for paying staff 10/12 of what they currently receive, or take it a step further and go to hourly rates (one for instruction, one for planning/grading, one for meetings/administrative, one for coaching/mentoring a club, etc).

@Brett: First of all, every time I see a photo of students in an article, they're all smiling, wearing uniforms or neat clothes, no phones/iPods in sight, pencils in hand, etc. Looks like a dream job to me. What's there to decompress from? Six months of 9am - 3pm with an hour for lunch?

And from what I've read, teachers enjoy wearing clothing that exposes cleavage, private parts, the midriff, undergarments, or that is otherwise "sexually provocative." http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin422_a.shtml
Sounds more like a strip club than a school.

>> Teachers are not paid, valued or appreciated enough.
>> It's very ignorant out here today.

Teachers would probably be paid (and valued) more if they stopped contributing significant chunk of their salaries to political lobbying called "NJEA". Please forgive me for not liking my money funneled to Dem electoral coffers.

It is very greedy out here today, isn't it?

Bret teachers NEED Summers off , but most don't get that luxury. Therefore, most teachers come back to school in September sleep deprived and deprived of decompression time too. Teachers always say they come early and stay late so how about a longer school day and school year ? Not a chance ,right. They're preparing children for ..... any job they don't moonlight at . Many years ago, an extensive survey was done of New York City school teachers . More than half said they moonlighted.They usually said they needed to supplement their teacher salaries. I know educrats who make well over 100k who moonlight . Maybe they're struggling too , whatever that means . What about the people who pay them, you know, their EMPLOYERS? Who cares, right ? Also, it is very ,very obvious that many teachers hate their job , bigtime.

In my 30+ years in West Orange , it has been my observation that people who are passionate , often to the point of fanaticism, about increasing teachers' compensation, invariably have a personal reason for their position.

I worked as a manager for Citigroup for years before I became a teacher. Teaching is EASILY 100 times more difficult than that job ever was. It is "realer" than any job you could hope to have. You are nothing more than a troll. Again, I invite you to instruct my class for 1/2 a day. You would run out of there pulling your hair out within an hour. You would fail at it, and fail miserably. You would certainly be one of the teachers fired under the new tenure bill. There is no job more energy-sapping than teaching children. So, let me know what date you would like to come in to instruct my learning disabilities class; we'll welcome you with open arms.

Mud Lady, you do not want to open this particular can of worms. You're, more likely than not, intellectually incapable of doing my job (don't take it as offense please, it is a statement of fact), whereas I likely can do yours (though, as likely, won't enjoy it).

That said, I do know that a teacher's job is demanding and ungrateful, and do believe that good teachers could (and should) be paid more if they were part of the free market. As things are now, however, they are a cross between glorified babysitters and political lobbyists.

@Philip: Exactly! These teachers have no idea what it's like to sit in an air-conditioned conference room doodling, texting, and drinking free coffee while that manager from the New York office babbles endlessly about "bandwidth," "reaching out," "team player," "win-win," "customer-centric," and so on, while sipping free coffee. And this happens 24/7/365, starting as early as 9am. And don't get me started on those torturous two-hour, company-paid lunch sojourns to Scores.

No Maxim, you CANNOT do my job unless you have had years of training. You cannot walk into a classroom and begin teaching special education children effectively without knowing the myriad strategies that must be utilized. You are one conceited guy, aren't you?

Mud Lady, I have to apologize on the record. I've done teaching and tutoring but special ed teaching requires the kind of knowledge (and courage) that I just do not possess. I'm taking that part of my statement back. The first part of the statement, however, is true; though I probably won't convince you of that online.

@Max: I think you will agree that all businesses want to maximize profits so the smart ones will buy the best resources (human and otherwise) to accomplish this. For the free market to work in public education, that would assume every district wants the best results (and is willing to do what that takes). Nothing could be farther from the truth: especially in this economy, it's about minimizing costs. Sure, they'd all love Delbarton results for a rock-bottom price. But that's not realistic. Remove the shackles of today's rules and traditions and you'd see many districts move to keep a small handful of veterans (for their institutional knowledge) but rely almost entirely on entry-pay teachers for everything else. Great for costs; not so good for results. If it were really about maximizing learning, districts would look a lot more like http://www.delbarton.org/.

@Mike - Well said. And not coincidentally, Delbarton is where Christie sent his son!

I work for a fairly large company at the management level. Do you know what I did for half the day today? I surfed the internet because I had next to nothing to do. My father on the other hand was a teacher and he told me enough stories to make me know that I would never be able to be a teacher.

Mike, I doubt I can afford Delbarton but I'd gladly pay extra for extra education quality. Unfortunately, if I choose so, I am still forced to finance the scam called "public schools".

Philip Shifley Great stuff ! OBVIOUSLY, they can't stand what they're doing . Read The Mud Lady's letters. Everyone stinks but her. Administrators are too great in number,and they're incompetent to boot. Parents, for countless reasons, are simply not up to the task .She managed at Citigroup for years . Teaching is a little harder ? perhaps a good deal harder ? , ..no ! A HUNDRED TIMES HARDER! Mud Lady believes it is private sector workers who are the get - over artists .Teachers NEED Summers off to rest and decompress. Teachers NEED Spring Break, Winter Break, they NEED Christmas through New Years off, they NEED early dismissals , the Teacher's Convention, and lots of personal days and vacation days. Private sector workers have jobs1% as hard,and therefore don't need or deserve much time off .Really pathetic and insulting, but very revealing. Mud Lady clearly shows her contempt for her EMPLOYERS, 3,000,000 of whom make $34,300 or less,and with lower take home pay. 30% of people with jobs rely on food stamps . Three - quarters of all the new income generated in New Jersey during the decade was earned by the top 20%: households earning $132,000 and more . Two young teachers, a teacher and a police officer,a fireman and a bureaucrat etc. Can Mud Lady make a connection between what the public earns and her compensation ? Does she believe there's no connection ? I think she must see one, but she couldn't care less .Read her letters . She should not be a teacher .

Yeah no, believe me, you wouldn't be "crisp". You obviously know nothing about education. And don't you dare say I don't love my job, I'v given everything I have to my kids for more than a decade.

I agree with you. Christie is the undereducated product of a dubious education system that churns out good parishoners who don't question the Pope's edicts, not careful rational thinkers. He's a guy that served less than one term as a freeload- holder, and parlayed that into being a governor who now somehow has the answers to everything, including questions no one even asks, because he knows better than all of us parents and you teachers, and, most importantly, you concerned voters. If his inablity to control his girth is off limits for comments because they offend the mild mannered, how about his inability to work coperatively on any level with the Legislature on things that bring jobs and employers back to NJ, other than Canadian developers? Not only will this do nothing about the standards in NJ schools, it will make ETS very, very happy donors and the NJEA just happy not to be under constant attack by this manic posterboy for the New Republican Party where being a moderate or even rational is cause for the hyenas to gather and rip you apart. NJ already has a bad enough reputation elsewhere - do we really need a loud, pointless podium pounder to enrich it?

Tough stand on state spending? I thought this was about improving teaching and schools?

The more Christie cuts our public schools, the more appealing a private school education becomes. That is the whole point.

You're free to send your child to any school you want. You aren't free to take my tax money and use it for your child's religious education. Use your own money.

Ridge Mom, Yes tough on state spending. Holding teachers accountable and making tenure something that is truly earned is spending tax dollars smart. Public schools in NJ have been a hole we poor money into without accountabilities. Private schools cannot raise tuition any time they want. The parents hold them accountable to achieve outstanding educational value or else the school enrollment falls. Choice causes schools to excel. Public schools need built in accountability metrics and automatic tenure is a key driver of mediocrity in public schools. Vouchers would be a great way to cause public schools to excel. Parental choice equals better public schools.

Why does Chris Christie want to dismantle public education? It is entirely about lowering taxes for the wealthiest.

1. Public education is paid for collectively, mainly those who own property and pay property taxes.

2. For most NJ residents, property taxes are far less then the cost of a private school education. If they have kids in school, they are getting a better value paying property taxes that fund public schooling for their children then they would be getting if they paid tuition at a private school.

3. People who have more highly assessed homes pay more in tax because that value goes into the determination of their property tax. For Chris Christie, last year's property taxes on his Mendham home were $37,584.68. Property taxes on his Camden home were $9,602.03. He also gets to live in the governors mansion, but anyway. These two properties cost him $47,186.71 per year in taxes. For such people as him, the cost of a private school tuition is less then the cost of paying taxes for public schools.

4. On an individual level, very wealthy people would be a great deal wealthier if they could not pay these taxes and just put their own children in a private school instead. Of course, this could not work for most NJ residents. But there is a belief, amongst some very affluent people who have been very politically active and successful lately, that they should not have to pay for such basics as public education that benefits the whole of society.

@Ridgewood Mom: Christie has four kids at Delbarton. 4 x $30K = $120K/yr. Ignoring inflation for a moment, that's $1.4M for K-12.

I'd love to send my kids somewhere where there's top-notch technology, facilities, and kids who want to learn (those who don't are either kicked out or pulled out, I'm sure), and classes of 15 instead of 29. I can't.

@Concerned: Do not ever hold the students accountable for anything. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-03-07-forum-students_x.htm

RM, that has to be the dumbest analysis I have ever seen. For starters, property tax bills cover a hell of a lot more than just the local BOE portion of the bill. On top of that, if you knew anything about people who want to scrap the school systems you would also know they support vouchers for parents to help pay for private schools that would be paid for out of taxes. Such a voucher program would mean all those people who now currently send their kids to private school would be clamoring for those vouchers on top of the public school kid parents and that could very well lead to a tax increase instead of a tax cut.

Please stop w/ the conspiracy theories already RM, your tinfoil hat is showing.

Redrider765,
Which part of my "analysis" do you feel is dumb? Do you believe that I am incorrect in stating that wealthier people pay more in taxes for schools?

Hitler had tremedous support, too, among the dogmatic and the gulible. You can not convince me that a man that, during a crisis of a natural disaster told people to get off the beach, and then left - for vacation - out of state. No one has public school "forced" on them. But the public does not need to pay for someone's private education in an institution that puts secular interests a distant second to teaching enforced mythology out of everyone's pockets. If I have to listen to gun nuts parroting the NRA on the "rights to bear arms", it's the least I can expect is to have someone recognize the "rights" that wisely keep the churches out of state funded education.

>> If I have to listen to gun nuts parroting the NRA on the "rights to bear
>> arms", it's the least I can expect is to have someone recognize the
>> "rights" that wisely keep the churches out of state funded education."

Behold the typical product of public education. He hates the Constitution (the very document that grants him the right to open his ignorant pie hole) yet doesn't have the vaguest clue about its content. Asked which part of the Constitution requires separation of church and state, he'd be as bewildered as a pig in a ballroom because the right answer is "nowhere". Back to your headquarters, dude, for a new batch of talking points!

Myth 1: Budget cuts. Christie claims to have cut spending. He has not. Corzine's last budget came in at $28.84 billion (it was originally appropriated at $28.9B, but mid-cycle cuts made by both governors brought down spending by roughly $100M). The 2013 budget, which Christie signed into law last month, is $31.7B. In fact, ALL THREE of Christie's budgets have been larger than Corzine's last one.

Myth 2: Tax cuts. Christie consistently claims that he held the line on taxes. But the average NET property tax bill has INCREASED by 20%, largely because of CC's deep cuts to the state's direct rebate program. At the same time, the state sales and income tax rates remain fixed at precisely the same levels as under Corzine.

Myth 3: Unfunded pension liabilities. Christie enacted important reforms that increased both the rate of employee contributions and the age at which government workers may collect their full pensions. But he imitated predecessors by drastically underpaying the state's actuarially REQUIRED contribution to the pension fund. Over 4 years, Corzine underfunded the system by $6.4B. In just 3 years, Christie has underfunded it by roughly $8.2B. And he still has a year left to go. True, Christie enacted new legislation making it impossible for future governors to short the ARC. But that law doesn't come into full effect until the end of the NEXT gubernatorial term. That's called kicking the can down the road.
SOURCE: http://bit.ly/MzaL3b

>> In fact, ALL THREE of Christie's budgets have been larger than Corzine's last one.

I call you a liar. Would you like to a) apologize, b) go back to NJEA for new talking points, or c) bet some money on the veracity of your statement?

Mike, First of all, costs don't stay the same over time. The economy is a mess and there's still plenty of people out of work requiring assistance, this is a guess, but I would really be surprised if costs have gone down. The difference you cite is only about 10%, that seems reasonable. An economic crisis like this one is a really bad time to start making drastic cuts. I think Hoboken is the only city in the entire state which managed to keep property taxes flat. http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index.ssf/2012/01/hoboken_and_jersey_city_lower.html

Uhhh Max, you're wrong sweetheart, but it's adorable how irritated you get. "The separation of Church and State" was coined by Jefferson to describe the 1st amendment.The establishment of a state religion is prohibited for very good reason. For the state to choose one faith means you exclude all others as invalid and it requires legislation to follow the tenets of that religion. That hardly allows freedom of speech or freedom of religion. It's been used by the Supreme Court, Presidents, Congress critters and the general populace for generations of American citizens.

Eric, keep the "swetheart" to your prison inmates. The Constitution guarantees "freedom of religion", not "freedom FROM religion", so unless you can quote the actual text from the Constitution I suggest you shut up.

Tough on state spending. Like taking a helicopter to a high school baseball game and a limousine for the 300 feet between the 'copter and the field.

@Eric: I must agree with Max on this. Toe the line or be smited. This is a CHRISTIAN NATION™.
@Max: You were polite and fact-driven for a while, but are getting ornery again. What budget numbers are you working from? I'd be glad to examine any source you have. And is there anything other than the fact that Christie has not [yet] campaigned for the privatization of public education that you dislike about the man?

Mike: When you copy-paste partisan talking points without checking them first, expect to be called a liar. NJ budget numbers are publicly available. The only budget that is over the last Corzine's budget is 2013. Look up the numbers on NJ Treasury site. Or check here, in simple graphic form:

http://www.independentcenter.org/2012/05/analyzing-njs-tax-and-budget-growth

I don't have any children in the school system. My taxes go to pay for everyone. Join Society, Concerned! Stop being so self-centered and selfish.

Exactly Concerned! This "education reform" nonsense is not about improving public schools. It is about gutting them deliberately, in order to lower taxes for more affluent members of the state.

@BellairBerdan: I suppose you don't mind paying taxes to pave roads you'll never drive on, either. Or for libraries in Cumberland County you'll never use.

No RM, this is about accountability and wanting to make sure that the people being asked to do a job that we pay are actually doing that job.

ridgewood mom,
You are spewing more of the same hateful rhetoric towards the 1%. utter nonsense. The 1% want to destroy public education?! Really? We must have an effective and strong public education system, so our country will excel in science, math, innovation and on and on. This is about reform to make sure all schools strive for excellence and do not become complacent.

Concerned,

I don't know about hate, spewing or the 1%. As far as I know I am a member of the 1%. I pay more in taxes then would be the cost of many private schools for both of my boys. I send my kids to public schools because, in my case and in many cases, the public schools that my children attend are much better than most private schools. I support funding for public schools more generally because I understand that to be a pretty obvious way of making them better for everyone.

I have made the point that the topic of making public schools better is entirely unrelated to the idea of chopping away at the conditions of teacher employment. Now before screaming "class warfare," can you provide any sort of argument to the effect that lowering taxes relates to improving our public schools? Please, feel free to disapprove of the utilization of taxes for this purpose. My point has only been that such is an entirely separate topic from that of improving our schools.

May I ask you if you would mind paying more in taxes for public education if it could be demonstrated that doing so would improve it?

BellairBerdan works for a school system. Stop attacking her pay check.

I doesn't sound so much like you "hate" children Maxim. It sounds more like you just don't care so much about the ones that you don't perceive as being your own. At least, it is not so important to you as increasing the size of your wallet.

So then Christie's "public school reforms" are only about improving schools via greater accountability for all those bad teachers now, and have nothing to do with the ethics of taxation and fairness with regards to public school funding?

How did taxes come up in our discussion then? How did these very unrelated topics become so comingled? Interesting.

Ridgewood Mom
Taxes have to be part of the discussion. taxes are the revenue that flows into the schools. If the public schools feel that that money is guaranteed and will always grow without accountability then complacency will run rampant and student suffer. At a private school tuition is their revenue and if they do not deliver outstanding educational value then the enrollment falls as does tuition dollars.

So Concerned, what you're advocating is vouchers where you would take the money I pay in taxes, take away my vote or voice how my tax money is spent and give it to yourself to spend on whatever school you decide? That's not self centered or selfish? Do you for one minute think that if you do not have the means Christie does your children will ever get the same education his children do? There will be a few very good and expensive schools for the wealthy and the rest will be left schools worse than the public system.

BellairBerdan, sorry that we are challenging your source of income. But who are you to dictate to parents how and where their children are educated? Parental Choice empowers parents to get their kids out of bad schools without uprooting their lives and moving to a new home. It also brings market normalization to the cost of education.

Well @ Berdan Bellair first off thanks for trying to be me, even though I know you're Tommy P.

Secondly, why do you believe in taxation without representation if you're such a patriot? Parents have a choice to send their children to any school they want. If they want to use my money, I get a vote how my money is spent. What a concept, huh?

BellairBerdan, I am not BerdanBellair, but you both have interesting points. As tax payers we should have say, but does that say mean we need to dictate where a child is educated? Or maybe we should be setting minimum standards?

The current system is designed to protect the employees of the board of education, not the interests of the children. The best way to deal with failing schools is the same way we deal with bad restaurants, stop patronizing them and let them close.

BellB
I am not taking your tax money for my vouchers! I am taking my tax dollars that I pay in taxes and spending them in a school of my choice. That is not selfish is fairness. Its all hypothetical as vouchers will never be a law of the land. I am just happy that Christie is putting accountability into the public schools system.

Gee Tommy, I must be mistaken then. Just a coincidence that the time stamps on that new name registered on Fair Lawn Patch came up only 3 minutes after the last post of Tommy P and that you are the only one, besides that new name, that has concluded what sex I am and where I work. Just a coincidence I'm sure.

Concerned, how would you handle people that rent? People with more than one child?

Concerned,

This article is about teacher "tenure" reform and other related job provisions that are of interest to teachers. The basis of calling this sort of move "education reform," and the arguments made in support of it, is the idea that this will somehow improve teachers and teaching. The idea is that kids who do badly are doing badly because of they have bad teachers and because of that only. And that the way to make things better is to strip away their due process rights, pensions, summer vacations, salary, etc., tell them that they are lousy lack dedication and work ethic, and that if they don't get their acts together they will soon find themselves jobless.

That seems to me a ludicrous strategy for improving our schools.

I am fine, here, with the matter that you and I see the matter of taxation differently and I know that is an important discussion for you. Maybe we could discuss that somewhere else. But it is a different discussion entirely.

That has been precisely my point. This "education reform" bandwagon about LOWERING TAXES, for wealthier individuals in particular, and is NOT about improving teachers and teaching. The very fact that we are discussing taxes at all, which are not the same thing as tenure reform, etc. makes this point clear.

Sounds great - in theory. So you have a voucher. You put your studious, behaved, respectful child with a desire to learn into what you believe is an excellent school. But since they have to take all comers, some parents of gang-bangers and hoodlums from 15 miles away choose the same school. Now the transportation costs go up exponentially and your kid is competing for attention with others hell-bent on disrupting the classroom. So you move your kid. Again. Do you see a pattern developing?

I have a friend who's a top teacher in his district; he teaches AP Calc and AP Statistics. Something like 91% of his students score 4 or 5 on the AP exams. I asked him: what percentage of their success is you, and how much is them? He said it's mostly the kids, but a great teacher does matter. He also taught in one of the "worst" districts in NJ many years ago, so he's seen different environments.

A great teacher can teach these kids biology: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5SNXQ4QUqQ

Everything should be pay-as-you-go. Roads, libraries, police, fire, parks, etc. That will create lots of toll-collector jobs.

I agree. Teaching is a tough job. I have a hard time with my four kids. Imagine having hundreds to keep track of. District spending per pupil is down. Talk about an injustice. The town would rather spend money elsewhere than for our kids. You should really consider a stupid tax. IQ test everyone and those that fall under stupid score get taxed. We could really fill the treasury with that tax.

Teaching is VERY hard work . We know this because so few teachers are willing to do it for more than a couple of hours a day .Fewer still teach with standards.On four occasions I spoke to Administrators about teachers who were grading but not correcting papers .I showed a Principal papers that had been graded 100% but had blank answer spaces. The teachers I complained about began to correct papers, graphic proof that they weren't doing their jobs previous to my complaints.Words like overworked and underpaid are subjective . Let's try this: In the past decade, people earning $34,300 or less, about 3 million people, were bringing home less . In 1990, 19% of people with jobs relied on food stamps. By 2010, the number was 30%. Three quarters of all the new income generated in New Jersey was earned by the top 20%: people making $132,000 or more . Bret, do you see any connection in the top's gains and the bottom's losses ? Want to talk about loud ? I haven't seen one comment from educrats that praises or empathizes with parents who are struggling. On the contrary , in one form or another , they're being denigrated, insulted,and directly blamed for their children's failures . But teachers? Overworked, underpaid, demoralized, unfairly blamed , etc. Teachers come early and stay late ? 14 days less instructional time at WO High than the State average. Try to put those hours in the contract, see how far you get. Conclusion ; teachers don't care about the people who PAY THEM.

Everything should be pay-as-you-go. Roads, libraries, police, fire, parks, etc. That will create lots of toll-collector jobs. What's your plan for all the kids under 18 whose parents can't/won't send them to school? The mall?

Police and fire protection equally applies to everyone, roads are the government's constitutional responsibility, and yes, libraries should charge a fee. You liberals should already know better than using the same beaten argument in every discussion.

Public education pertains to everyone.

Someone paid for their education didn't they? Including those who didn't have children. We all enjoy the benefits of a reasonably educated populace. The most dangerous places on the planet are inhabited by people who lack education and easy access to basic necessities. I'd say it's worth it.

The NJEA Union insisted on this drawn out process. The Union is more concerned over the Teachers job security but not the students.

I'm no lover of the NJEA, but its purpose is just that: to look after the best interests of its membership. Just like a company's sole responsibility is to maximize shareholder value. Ends justifies means.

@TCG: I'm sure glad all mechanics, doctors, cops, etc., are above average from Day One. Most teachers I know are more fired up about how unreliable the evaluations are (hint: many early implementers are backing away from VAMs).
http://schoolfinance101.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/firing-teachers-based-on-bad-vam-versus-wrong-sgp-measures-of-effectiveness-legal-note/

Published numbers ignore the 50% of teachers who leave the profession before 5 years. If a teacher is told he/she is not effective and won't be renewed, and that teacher decides to become a greeter at Walmart, it's not counted. This is one reason why the de-tenuring rate is so amazingly low: most of the weeding out is done by the teachers themselves. Perhaps if districts publicly fired the less-than-superb teachers on the spot we'd see more accurate reporting. I happen to agree that if a teacher is less-than-excellent, it's not up to the administrative staff to try to help/develop them; kids are not guinea pigs. Just keep the remarkable teachers, pay them well, and jettison the rest. Then all teachers will be above-average.

Mike
a company"s sole responsibility is not increasing shareholder value. It is also to create a quality product or service that is safe for consumers. If not it willl go out of business or be subject to lawsuits and resulting liabilities. The NJEA is able to ignore the well being of the students as the public school is created by the government and its enrollments are guaranteed. No consequences.

@Concerned: Offering a safe, quality product may be a *means* to achieve the goal of maximizing shareholder value, but doing so is NOT in and of itself a corporation's raison d'être. Plenty of companies have offered great products and services yet failed due to pricing or marketing errors. And I'd even argue with the "safe" element of your post as plenty of companies have done very unsafe things and survive or thrive (BP's well disaster, GM's exploding pickup trucks, Ford's exploding Pinto, Union Carbide's Bhopan incident, etc.). And how many corporations created Superfund sites for the public to clean up? I still maintain that any union's mission to look out for its members, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Why not attend BoE and DoE meetings and push to make everyone in public education a '1099' contractor at ten bucks an hour w/no benefits? That's 1/15 the cost calculated by john anthony prignano earlier in this thread. The savings will pay for a lot of tax cuts.

Public education really took off when Corporate America™ needed minimally educated fodder for its mills and factories, which is why everyone pays for it (yet another subsidy). Thanks to technology, there's little demand for an educated workforce ("paper or plastic?"), and I expect a strong privatization of education in the coming decade or two. The savings will then be applied to the elimination of taxes on the über rich and the corporations they own.

And we all know administrators are insanely competent and always have the kids' best interest at heart, unlike those greedy, parasitic teachers. Just like all managers in corporate are superb - otherwise, why would they be managers?

From http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126349435:

"Unlike tenure for university professors...it's simply a guarantee of due process — that if a teacher is fired, it will be for cause."

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, NOT THE KIDS...
"Personally, I am glad tenure exists to protect teachers from arbitrary administrative decisions. I have an M.Ed. I have been nationally recognized as an exemplary teacher. Students in my classes gain an average of 1.7 grade levels for every year as measured by the Iowa Tests.
This makes me expensive.
Some years ago my district was facing an economic shortfall, so it reduced my class load - and therefore the amount it had to pay me- to one class period per day (1/5). They couldn't fire me because they had no reason, but they could make it so that teaching there was no longer economically reasonable for me. (I was at the bottom of the senority scale in my department.) I resigned and left to teach at another school. As soon as I resigned, my position was opened at 4/5. (teaching 4 out of 5 classes). Another teacher with no experience was hired. When the comment was made that I would have stayed for 4/5, the superintendent replied that had I remained, the position would not have opened to 4/5, because the district couldn't afford it. This was in spite of tenure law, but it does bring up how money has to figure into the thinking of a district. My former district rarely, if ever, hires a teacher with experience."

What handouts (other than to corporations) has Obama championed - the the Republican House has approved?

>> What handouts (other than to corporations) has Obama championed - the
>> the Republican House has approved?

Okay, let me list a few that the House did *not* approve, off the cuff... Mass amnesty for Mexicans, check. Gutting Clinton's welfare reform, check. Pigford II settlement, check. UAW bailout, check. Solyndra, check. Guns for Mexican drug cartels, check. Gosh, it's gonna be a very long list.

First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Now, to the strawman argument of yours. While your right (and, coincidentally, mine) not to practice religion is guaranteed by the First Amendment, nothing in it precludes the government to support parochial schools or faith-based charities - as long as no religion is given a preference over another, or absence thereof. Therefore, it is perfectly constitutional to issue vouchers to Catholic private schools, but only as long as similar vouchers are available for medreses or Montefiori schools. Class dismissed, and don't forget to wash your hands.

Careful, Eric: Maxim armed to the teeth + God on his side = You Lose.

In an ideal world, with fair, valid means of evaluation, I agree. But currently-proposed VAMs (value-added measurements) are new and hotly debated; some studies show bad teachers escape it and good teachers' careers are ended by it. Also, very little to keep an administrator from either playing favorites or finding a way to get rid of a good-but-vocal teacher (e.g., give her the Schedule From Hell™ for a couple of years). Finally, there should always be protection from false accusations by students. I know good teachers who, because they graded fairly, were set up by vindictive students.

Eric, all that prison talk is very cute but sorry, I kinda prefer women. So you have no objection against the State giving vouchers to parochial schools, right?

How about Madrasahs?

What does church have to do with being a good shot? I never went to church except as tourist, nor to the temple, and my only problem with shooting so far was lack of good indoor ranges in Morris Cty.

Eric, religious classes are absolutely not OK when they are given instead of the basic curriculum. If they are given in addition to it, and the parents have willingly chosen the school, then yes, I am fine with them. And by the way, I had the same question to you regarding "black history months" and "gay pride heroes", paid with my tax money, that my daughter had to write essays on.

Mike, when you post your partisan propaganda, at least post it correctly. The link leads to nowhere. Please consult your superiors for instructions.

Mike, you're about as close to perfection as me to scoring a date with Cameron Diaz. There's no point in shooting you, I'll be better off donating you to Ripley's. As for the link, I see you have a problem with commemorating American history. Why do you hate this country so much, Mike?

Max, I meant it must be difficult for YOU to be so perfect in a sea of imperfection (myself included).

Must be a great, smart country to let perfect people like in, eh?

Mike, do you have anything to say on the topic - I mean, besides copy-pasting propaganda pieces? If not, I suggest you use your right to remain silent.

@Max: Or else...? Are you threatening me or running for ListMom?

I can't punish you harder than the Mother Nature did, Mike. No one can.

Touché, sir. And I agree. Yet you love the back-and-forth.

Mike, arguing with a professional is like having a mud ball fight with a pig. You end up all dirty and the pig likes every moment of it. :)

Mbw, why did you leave out that he wasn't going to conduct state business but to meet with donors talking about his run for president? BTW, the transporting him on a large campus was 1000 feet.

The freefall off the cliff was much better than the landing and the long climb up.

It is not hate... Gina. It is the after effect of seeing my tax bills go up every year. I started out with paying about $5500 in 1999 and now I am paying almost $11000.

I see that the bulk of that increase is supporting a special group of union employees who get an automatic 3~4% increase every year they work. I have not seen an increase in my income for some years even though I get great reviews (due to economic conditions).

I see that I have to save for my retirement and they get to enjoy one on me (mostly).

I see that I have to pay huge amounts of money for my health care and they get to pay a few dollars and they complain. They also get that benefit even after they retire.

I see that they only work 10 months out of a year and in Teaneck make great salaries and benefits. Most tax payers get only 2 weeks off.

I see that it is very hard to fire them even when they are proven to be bad teachers.

I see that ......

The list is long........

I hope you can see where all that rage is coming from. It is time for teachers and administrators to realize that the party is over. They should sacrifice some to keep Teaneck affordable for all of the tax payers.

zizi,
great post and stated perfectly!

Ask any Realtor® - the perception of the school system is a huge factor for people who have kids or are planning to, and is still important to others because it ties to home values as you point out (an argument that should be made to seniors who believe that since their kids are done, so is their "duty" to continue to pay).

In a normal economy, you'd be right in that the better teachers would bag Ridgewood for more stable pastures. BUT with many districts still without contracts and a HUGE surplus of teachers (especially at the K-5 level), people are taking what they can get (great for morale). Here's another thing that gets very little publicity: many new teachers do not look at teaching as a lifelong career. Part of that is due to the acrimony, instability, loss of previous selling points (decent salary, attractive benefits, job security, respectful student body, support from administration). Another part is the psychology of millennials, which basically assumes everything is temporary, to a greater or lesser degree. I know of a district without contract for 4+ years. Another that froze salaries and movement up the guide for 3 years.

If you're in a "good" district that already has strong AP and SAT scores, how much improvement do you expect to see each year? There's an asymptote at 2401. Worry more about the drug problems (yes, people, LOTS of drugs in rich schools).

I think that I see it the same way WiseOldGramps. Note, though, that this article is not only a part of the Ridgewood Patch but also posted across the Patch sites of many towns across northern NJ. There are different perspectives to be noted between posters.

Mike makes a good point, that a stressed economy explains why many teachers continue to tolerate the abuse that is being inflicted on them so often these days. We are living through what some refer to as an "employer's market." On the other hand and despite the strained economy, elite private school tuition is going up and teacher pay is increasing. Pertinently, relative to public schools. The job market for teachers in elite private schools is the same job market as the one for public schools.

Traditionally, better public school districts have offered a quality of education to rival the best of private schools, and part of this has to do with competitive salary, benefits and work conditions. While the traditional educational advantages afforded by select public schools in predominantly upper middle/lower upper class are unlikely to suffer relative to more impoverished areas, very wealthy persons are distancing themselves exponentially from the UM/LU class.

Cuts to public school teaching conditions and a decreasing level of respect for the profession, exemplified by the sorts of demeaning rants found in posts above, should be expected to lower the quality of public school education across the board.

tryintosurvive You are so right . There is nothing but teachers . There are hundreds for every opening Yet the educrats say there is a teacher shortage . Maybe in certain disciplines . For every math teacher, there are 20 guidance counselors . For every science teacher, there are countless non- supervisory coordinators , teacher coaches, consultants ,etc. 20% of the staff at West Orange High School teaches a total of zero classes.tryintosurvive, Remember when you agreed with me on all the points I made in a letter about teachers , but you weren't sure about my statement that teachers will do anything to get what they want ? How about this : Every April, we would get a letter from the P.T.A. asking for a yes vote on the budget . The letter warned ;" If the budget is defeated , programs like art and music may be eliminated . class sizes may increase, Hazardous Route Courtesy Busing may be eliminated, and children will have to walk dangerous highways to school." That last statement is a direct threat to children's lives to get a budget passed . tryintosurvive, Millburn delivered on that threat . The School Board eliminated Hazardous Route Courtesy Busing .Parents have to pay $580 per child , with a cap of $1160 regardless of how many children one family has being bused .One parent said " What can I do ? I can't let my 6 year old walk over a mile to school. I have to pay " Other parents echoed those comments. If that's not an extortion / protection racket , what is ??

tryintosurvive To illustrate the point about " Few are called, many more are chosen " Take a look at West Orange High School. The ratio of students to " educators " is less than ten to one . But look at average class size It's well over 20 students to each teacher . Twenty per cent of the professional staff at west orange High school teaches a total of zero classes . I'm sure it's pretty much the same everywhere . Coordinators, consultants, curriculum constructionists,, counselors, coaches , deans, department heads, etc. etc. ad infinitum

Of course there will never be a shortage of bodies. Christie and his ilk get this and delight in telling dedicated, seasoned educators that he doesn't care if they quit. Such is amusing for them. And from this point of view why not just hire teachers right out of high school? Who cares if they are no good? If they only last a couple of years and then we replace them with younger recruits it'll cost less. We can tell people that the older and more experienced teachers are burnouts and that we need young blood to invigorate the profession with fresh, tech savvy, innovative ideas.

But then aren't the usual Christie style education reform arguments based on the idea that there is not a shortage of teachers but a shortage of "quality" teachers? Hmmm...

Shakesspeare - Julius Ceasar " Danger knows full well that I am more dangerous than he . We are lion cubs , born of the same litter, and I the elder and more terrible "

I believe that if you work for a private, parochial or charter school you would not belong to a union.

Four times I spoke to Administrators about teachers who were grading papers but not correcting them .A Principal said they didn't want to put red ink all over the paper, because it breaks the child down and hurts their self - esteem. A teacher also said that to me .I asked both of them , " How can a child learn if no one corrects them ? " Also , because I anticipated that response from the Principal, I then took out papers that had been graded 100, but had answer spaces that had been left blank . "This teacher's not even looking at the papers ",I said .I said to an Adminstator that I considered that behavior malpractice . He said " It's not malpractce " I said, "What would you call it ?" He said " It's not malpractice . " Students teach {? } other students World Languages . Students coach and mentor other students who are struggling in math . After school tutors can be as young as 16 .When a doctor botches an operation , does he blame the patient and the patient's parents ? Does he point to bad demograhics as the main reason for the unnecessary death of a patient ? When someone attends Medical School and doesn't do well , can't he just explain that standardized tests aren't a fair way to judge knowledge and ability, and become a doctor anyway? If you want to be treated like a professional. behave like one . Accept clearly defined standards, stop the blame game, stop the self - pity, and . stop trying to elevate yourself to god- like status. WALK THE WALK !

Even if not unionized, most education jobs (unless you're a very unique college professor like a retired Treasury Secretary) have pay tied to education and experience. The few Catholic school teachers I know, for example, make between about $23K and $35K per year (imagine taking $15K in health coverage out of that). A friend who worked at St Patrick's in Elizabeth loved the discipline but hated the pay.

Check this out:
http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/state.cfm

Mom Average Great comments EVERY grade is BRUTAL - A teacher will say "They assigned me the seventh grade this year " Then they will look skyward, roll their eyes and sigh deeply. Often they make that finger to the temple gesture. And that same reaction will occur if they are assigned a third grade class, or a ninth grade class,or a sixth grade class , etc. In a few weeks, a great American tradition will occur . Say to any teacher, " Labor Day is right around the corner " And they will respond " Please don't remind me !! " Alot of these people absolutely hate what they're doing - " Few are " called " many more are chosen "

We should beat them until morale improves!

@Sick: Totally agree. Despite the median salary of about $59K statewide (for someone with close to a master's and about a decade of experience), too many classroom teachers are at or about the $100K mark. Compensation for teachers and other public servants should be paid based on the lowest salary and benefits among the town's taxpayers. Remove all protections and due process - which private sector workers don't enjoy. Pensions are a relic of the last century, so those gotta go. Eliminate the 403(b) matches and bonuses. Health care premiums should be at LEAST 50% paid by employees. Implementing a 260-day school year will dramatically reduce expenses for working parents who don't have to fund camps and other activities in the summer (however, vacation time must be offered to students and their families, and teachers must accommodate this in their lessons). And to your final point, I agree: no one should take a job to benefit from the perks.

Yes, and investors should not invest to make money. They should do it only for the love of giving.